bw5493

My Feedback: (36)

So, we in the AMA have seen the traditional competition participation dwindle. We are not bringing in the young folks, instead folks worry about themselves for the most part. We have seen clubs not even greet a dad and son when they show up to watch, or maybe have a new plane in the car looking for help. Its just like how only 2-3 guys, do everything at the field. You can't even get folks to help CD a fun fly. Then, add in the cost of entry, sure I know, Sportsman can be flown with an Eagle II, but that is not what people see. They see the $2500 all composite full blown ship and think there is no way on God's green earth that will ever be them...so they pass. We see this in Pylon, and in scale too. Multirotors can be done for under $500, and folks trip all over themselves to help new guys, maybe some of the gray haired folks should stand up and take notice. Grab a young flyer and buddy box him or her on your pattern ship, or the days of competition are, well...numbered!
Believe it or not, control line has actually boosted membership in some of my clubs! How... they invented a buddy handle, and anyone who walks up and wants to try gets to, and it is more than one guy doing it. The whole club does it!

Bryan Wood
AMA District XI VP

KLXMASTER14

Gyros are no good!

Says the group of guys with ZERO experience with them.

The gyro does not fly the plane. A poor pilot will still receive poor scores. I remember back when dual rates were a controversial thing!

A gyro will help keep an airplane from bouncing around as much in turbulent conditions. You still have to fly the plane.

A top level trimmed aircraft would IMO not benefit at all from the addition of a gyro. In fact, it would likely degrade the performance. But like the other poster commented, maybe in the Club class, Sportsman and Intermediate?

Our club does a lot of classic pattern, and the introduction of gyros (yes we allow them) has opened the door for pilots that would otherwise struggle to learn the required skills. This is especially true of our more "senior" pilots. We aint getting any younger. Seems like a way to grow participation to me.

Robert

bjr_93tz

If it were up to me, computer radios would have a F3A mode, with no expo, dual rates, mixing or any other trickery.

But it's no up to me so I use what I'm allowed to use.

As for not recommending anyone a 2m plane for starting out?? If you're not flying scale or speed (or gliding) why bother flying anything other than a pattern ship??

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

Over time I have spent a lot of effort getting new people in to RC Aerobatics. One thing that is evident, we are not getting younger people in to the event. For the most part it is the 40,50-60-somethings that are trying pattern. Heck, we don't really have younger people at the club fields. It's not that they are not out there, it's just that the modelling they are interested in doesn't need a club field anymore.

Also, another reality is that people who can afford to fly pattern don't have the spare time that existed 20 years ago. The nature of American life is that work now absorbs much more time then it did before. Plus add the fact that most households have both parents working full time and there is even less spare time for hobbies.

Pattern needs to pay attention to these realities and not what was in the past. Older newcomers with less spare time means things have to change to maintain participation. The use of gyros will make it easier to get a good flying model. And their cost is less then what a decent servo costs these days.

I also completely agree with Jim's initial post that the box should be eliminated. I lose the vast majority of the people I get to fly pattern when they move from Sportsman to Intermediate. Staying in the box means they have to fly too far away for their comfort level. Vision isn't what it used to be when you are younger! The box served a purpose when Turnaround was started. That purpose is no longer needed. Get rid of the box and let people fly where they are comfortable.

Staying with the same old same old is not going to stop the decline in pattern. It is going to take change to stem the tide. Just saying that I had to work hard to get in to pattern so newcomers need to do that also is not a solution.

bjr_93tz

That's an interesting point. We've slightly done the opposite here in Aus by adding two turnarounds to the Sportsmen (entry level) schedule, forcing the box into that class for part of the schedule to "aid the transition".

Personally I don't think it will help sportsmen pilots become better flyers, however the argument was that it would be better (not sure what metric they are going to use to measure that?) and sportsmen pilots wanted it to so it was done. Time will tell...

big_G

The area of this hobby where there is great potential to gain pattern participants, IMO, is with drone pilots. In Texas, the drone racing league is huge, and full of competitive and young individuals. When they burn out in a few years, (and they will), they will look for some other outlet. I am always available to answer their questions when they approach me, and suggest that if you have some racing drone pilots in your club, make yourself open to their questions, and show them another type of competition.

KC8QPU

It was a good article. However I don’t think it was entirely accurate. There are so many different receivers or separate stand alone stabilizer units now that can be programmed for any configuration and can be oreiented any direction and any way. Ask any of the heli guys? Heck when I flew helis I had a spektrum AR7200bx and had to program it so it would work setting on the side of the heli frame. Point is they can be put anywhere in the airframe and not just sitting in what would be the standard flat location.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

As far as I know, and I use the AR7200BX, the axis of the unit still need to be aligned with the axis of the model. Yes, it can be oriented in different ways, but the axis must still align. And unless the unit is mounted properly it will cause poor or loss of control. So I believe my article is accurate.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

In AMA pattern Sportsman already fly in the box for short series of maneuvers with exit and reentry to the box. It is when going to Intermediate that all of the maneuvers must stay in the box, much more difficult to do and usually requiring flying further away to stay in the box.

big_G

At the Nats lat summer, Ron Shirley went out to the side of the flight box and noticed that many of us were flying at about 200 meters, well behind the 150 meter poles. I'm sure we did this to keep from busting the box. How about keeping the box, but open it up 10 degrees each side of center? P. S. I found the new Advanced class has a few maneuvers that are tight, and would benefit some of us.

kenh3497

At my first pattern contest I noticed that many of the maneuvers were very much exaggerated. Very long lines between the maneuvers and LONG up and down lines with lots of allitude. It was almost like the guys were afraid of being downgraded for not drawing a long enough line between maneuvers. IMO the top of the box was being busted on a regular basis. To me the maneuvers did not flow very well because of the exaggerated lines. Maybe it's just because I'm new to all of this????? Maybe just tighten up the maneuvers a bit and not draw such long lines between maneuvers?

Ken

Jeff Worsham

My Feedback: (28)

In addition to 60deg left and right, the box upper boundary is 60 deg up. At 150 meters out, 60 deg up works out to be 852ft altitude. At 175 meters out (still in the box) the altitude at 60 deg up is 994ft. Those are both WAY up there, and also still in the box. We all have choices regarding how we want to present the pattern and some (like myself) prefer a large and slower presentation. When I was learning advanced in 2016, I had guys telling me I was breaking the box vertically at the top of the triangle (with snap) and top of the half square full roll up leading into the outside cuban from the top. So I put one of the those altitude sensors in my plane and went out to practice. I was amazed at how consistently the altitude read 805 to 815 ft at the tops of those maneuvers where guys were just sure I was going out of the box. And we have poles set up at my field 150m out, so it's easy to judge and maintain Z distance from the runway.

Now this year in Masters we have the vertical cuban 8, with half roll going up and full roll coming down. Results in a very tall maneuver, again the plane WAY up there as it goes over the top. And again, for overall pattern symmetry and presentation purposes, it's not going to look nice if the other maneuvers in the pattern are small and fast with this hugely tall maneuver stuck in the middle.

Don't get me wrong- Sportsman and Intermediate don't necessarily need to use the whole box, in fact the disadvantage to flying big is that it opens you up to more chances for downgrades. Thankfully the box size allows others to fly big if they prefer, or maybe out of necessity due to maneuver requirements.

Jeff Worsham

My Feedback: (28)

Sorry to promote getting off topic on box and maneuver size. This thread was about using gyros in pattern.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

To be honest, I took the thread meaning to be about increasing participation. Gyros being one suggestion on how to accomplish that. I for one would support just about anything that would get more guys flying in contests. I personally feel that having a “ pattern social “ prior to the season starting to help educate guys who show some interest. If we don’t do something we may all just end up sport flying our pattern airplanes and talk about the good ol days.

Smooth Pilot

Probably using gyros in Sportsman may be an initial help, but would rapidly become a hindrance as the pilot progressed because of the dependence on the system to fly smoothly. Even my sport planes are trimmed to fly hands off for a good distance. Pattern planes take this to another level. I cannot tell you how often judges have told me my scores would increase if I left the sticks alone and only use them when they are needed. In others words, the plane is capable of flying by itself, you only have to use the sticks to maneuver.

Sheldon

bjr_93tz

With a bit of luck you might get told this a bit less often.

The new FAI sporting code for F3A ( ) is out and they're reducing the weighting for gracefulness and smoothness and increasing the weighting for geometric accuracy section (5B.4).

But if you're telegraphing minor mistakes to the judges by immediately and blatantly correcting them, then still expect to get hit hard...

I'm expecting that big, floaty, F3P inspired designs will benefit from this weighting change....

flywilly

My Feedback: (121)

Thanks for posting the new sporting code, Brett! Gracefulness and smoothness are much more subjective than geometric accuracy.

I agree the objective is to encourage more participation in pattern. I think classic pattern is an excellent vehicle to attract 'new' blood to pattern; smaller planes, cheaper, easier schedules, no box. Progression to 'modern', arrest style pattern is still a pretty big jump, but more in cost than learning curve if mastery of the maneuvers has been accomplished. Identifying the ideal 'target' group may be the most critical aspect for success. I agree that it may be the 'over 40' pilots, but finding a way to reach the millennial drone pilots couldn't hurt!

andydallas

My Feedback: (2)

Ok, first forgive me for even saying anything, I have never flow in a pattern contest but am a "newby" wanting to fly pattern.

I don't want to use a gyro, I want to fly pattern to learn to be a better flier. Maybe some people would be more attracted to fly with a gyro, which I am the first to say are GREAT to help you learn to fly (such as HH "Safe" system. But as soon as I could fly, I never looked back (ok a few times I wish I had a gyro, but thats how we learn.

To me the biggest thing holding back more people from flying pattern is
1 thinking I have to have a big expensive plane
2. thinking its an 'elite club' that I might not want to be part of (I have found pattern people EXTREMELY willing to help someone that wants to learn.
3 most clubs don't have anyone flying pattern, so they don't even know what it is (people confuse Pattern with IMAC, and think they have to have a 200cc plane to be competitive.

Getting the word out through AMA to just explain what Pattern is about to new people flying would help,,,even the NSRCA site shows the closest "instructor' to me in Austin, Im in Dallas,,,but there are great people willing to help me here in Dallas


andy

bjr_93tz

Another thought would be that gyro's and other forms of stabilisation would/should force a change in air-frame design.

If you can build the stability in electronically, there's very little reason to build the stability in mechanically. Flybarless heli's prove that.

jester_s1

To my thinking, the answer to this question lies in what problem we are trying to solve. Is it to reduce the cost of entry or to make pattern flying less intimidating to beginner pilots? I can't see gyros accomplishing that. Going to smaller planes for the first two classes would do it, as well as not allowing some of the fancier equipment like counter rotating props or super light planes. But allowing gyros effectively means requiring gyros to be competitive, increasing the complexity of the planes along with the cost.

time907356

I thought I'd add some first hand experience with gyro use in pattern. We host a beginners contest series at our club in SC, and early on, didn't monitor for gyro's. Then someone brought it to our attention that the guy winning Sportsman had an AS3X in his plane. We asked him to disable it before the next event, which he did, and his performance demonstrably and measurably diminished. There's no question that gyro's will improve scores, make flying sequences easier, and require lower pilot skill to perform well. These things are antithetical to pattern, in my (purist) mind. The AMA Comp. Regs. definitely agree:
4.4.2. The intent of this section is that the pilot must initiate all input commands to the aircraft. Use of autopilot control or aircraft axis stabilization during competition is prohibited. Automatic control sequencing either in the transmitter or the model is prohibited.
Gyro's are way different that any other radio function or aircraft design feature ever considered, simply because in competition, it takes over exactly what the pilot is supposed to do, which is exactly what he/she is graded on.
BUT, and that's a big one, there's always room for change. Although I'm not convinced that gyro use will grow pattern, we can change it if we want to. The question is, is it worth the hassle to change it, and will we like what we see on the other side? If gyro's are legal, what about GPS guidance? - There go your box issues. Do we need airplanes, or can we just fly on simulators, and maybe online so we don't have to travel. I'll just send in my best 4 rounds in an email attachment to the CD, and see how I did...
So, while pattern is on the decline, we should be careful what compromises are made to preserve it. Too many, and it won't be precision aerobatic competition at all. Too few, and we'll be talking about 'the good ole' days' in the not too distant future. IMO, we should try everything else first.

OhD

Did he keep coming back?

It seems to me everyone needs to ask themselves what their objectives are. Do you want to show that you can fly a crappy flying plane better than everyone else can fly their crappy plane, or do you want to out BUY, out BUILD, out TRIM and out PRACTICE the others and then after 75 flights feel you are ready for competition? And then after maybe three seasons you actually win a local contest. I've been there and done that and I hate to say it but the rewards are questionable.

I fly pattern with the objective of flying as well as I can but I'm never going to buy $6500 airframes and fly six flights a day six days a week. If I can buy something for $100 that makes my airplane better I'm all for it. It isn't going to initiate commands for you and it isn't going to automatically control sequencing. It will help make your crappy airplane less crappy or well trimmed airplane better in rough air. If you don't like those results stick with your old rules that allow any number of stabilization devices and schemes as long as they are not electronic.

Jim O

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

I must add that over the past 10-15 years I have seen the average sport guy pay less and less attention to setup and trimming. IMO trimming is a lost art. Even here on the forums, advising guys that the issue they are having is easily fixed with a little tweak here and there is becoming a futile task. Allowing gyros in AMA pattern may very well end up a good idea and then the FAI guys will need to do without.

time907356

Agree x2....and I'd stretch it by the same margin to 20-30 years. It began with ARF's replacing building. I've seen several guys come out recently with surfaces throwing the wrong way, and they didn't know the difference!!
_______________________

Did he keep coming back?

It seems to me everyone needs to ask themselves what their objectives are. Do you want to show that you can fly a crappy flying plane better than everyone else can fly their crappy plane, or do you want to out BUY, out BUILD, out TRIM and out PRACTICE the others and then after 75 flights feel you are ready for competition? And then after maybe three seasons you actually win a local contest. I've been there and done that and I hate to say it but the rewards are questionable.

I fly pattern with the objective of flying as well as I can but I'm never going to buy $6500 airframes and fly six flights a day six days a week. If I can buy something for $100 that makes my airplane better I'm all for it. It isn't going to initiate commands for you and it isn't going to automatically control sequencing. It will help make your crappy airplane less crappy or well trimmed airplane better in rough air. If you don't like those results stick with your old rules that allow any number of stabilization devices and schemes as long as they are not electronic.
______________________
Jim,
Yes, he stayed with us for a short time anyway. The gyro wasn't the issue; he was 17, so cars/college took him away.
I agree with the sentiments regarding the investment and results, however gyro's do exactly what you said they don't; they initiate commands for the pilot. They don't just improve crappy airplanes (and I've build plenty of those!), they make pilots look (and score) better than they are.

big_G

Nothing will bring new pilots into pattern more that old fashioned being nice. Forget all the gizmos and be a good ambassador to the hobby. Make them feel welcome, and help them get started. I know when we head to the field we are concentrating on getting in some quality practice time, but find some time to answer questions and maybe have them watch you go thru a sequence on the line. If they are a good pilot, let them try your ship...they will be surprised at how easy it is to fly.
Once they enter competition, if the new pilots are having fun (most will), it won't matter that they are flying a Kaos and some other Sportsman pilots are flying 2 meter ships. If they have fun and learn, they will move up and be a regular competitor. It's up to US.